To Bats in the Belfrey. I only say insulting things to people who say mean, stupid stuff about obesity. Lots of people want to own the cure in here. They want to be the final word. Now, I don’t mind that as long as they are polite. But lots more have the facts wrong and condescending attitude towards obesity.
There isn’t a single study that has found more than a handful people able to keep excess weight off over five years. Most studies find that the vast majority of people regain most, all, and sadly, even more weight back than they started off with. The numbers are tragic.
Look at the number of people in here who think they blew their diet because they got fired or their SO dumped them, and think it’s their own fault. The truth of the matter is that there are people that even scientists can’t figure out how to get them to lose weight.
As long as people are straight forward about their own experience, I never insult them. But when they insult people who are wrestling with their genetics, I think it needs to be dished right back.
The curious thing about you is that you don’t object to stupidity, misinformation or condescension. You object to a factually based response from someone who provides innumerable links to mainstream journalistic articles and directly to studies. I think that’s weird.
Lessee …. … so, two wrongs make a right?
Nope, still don’t.
Flag/neg the abusers.
Regards “there isn’t a single study that has found…people [are] able to keep excess weight off over five years”. Seems to me I’ve seen a few discussions of this being a canard and old-wives tale that’s frequently repeated. I’ll see if I can’t find refs.
Rapid weight loss through very restricted calorie diets tend not to be effective for numerous reasons. I’ve experienced (and have seen) successful long-term weight loss through picking up healthy habits of nutrition and exercise (both weights and cardio).
Gimmicks and tricks: no, they aren’t effective long term. The other stuff works, but you have to do it. Every day (almost), for the rest of your life.
No, it isn’t a wives tale.. Start reading the studies.
Trying to wake up those brain cells …. … but the recollection was that this started from a couple of studies in the 1950s which have been quoted as gospel since.
I’m thinking this was in TNROL (it sounds like the sort of thing Schuler would take note of), but that doesn’t quite feel right.
Have a spliffy weekend!
No, that’s completely wrong.. That’s a claim people make but it’s not rooted in reality. The truth of the matter is that dozens and dozens and dozens of studies have been done in the past decade about weight loss and weight loss maintenance. We know more than we used to but we still don’t know how to get weight off the majority of people who wrestle with obesity and keep it off. That is a fact. We do know that exercise is the most effective and essential component. We know that metabolisms drop dramatically when weight is lost. We know that the chemical lining of the stomach of someone who is obese is completely different than the chemical lining of someone who isn’t. We know that someone who has weight loss surgery, the next day has the chemical lining of someone who is slim – but we don’t know why. We know hormones drive most eating that sabotages most diets.
The two studies from the 50s that are referred to are where the notion that 95% to 98% of people gain most or all of their weight back. But those numbers have been validated time and time again.
Anyone who thinks that scientists aren’t constantly trying to devise ways to determine the most effective way for people to diet and keep weight off isn’t paying much attention.
Read Re-thinking Thin. It’s the best assessment of the current state of science that I know of.
I posted that to jar my and others memories…. … hoping something will surface.
I’m not going to even attempt argument based on assertions of what “they” say until I can point to some concrete instances of both “they” and “say”.
I’ll disagree without specificity on much of the rest of your post, though there are parts I agree with.
My point was and remains: I’m looking for the evidence, not having an argument at the moment.
I did thumb through a copy of Ms. Kolata’s book some months ago, and was rather unimpressed by it. A lot of dithering, not much backbone. I mostly gathered that she’s afraid of conclusions.
She would tell you there are very few conclusion. to be had at the moment. I know the territory pretty well myself and most researchers will tell you that we don’t even begin to understand obesity and how it happens. They aren’t even sure that overeating leads to obesity because plenty of trim people eat like pigs and don’t gain weight, while lots of fat people have kept the lid on calories their whole life. No one knows. What we do know is that losing weight and keeping it off is almost impossible and there are no real studies that point to the majority of dieters losing weight and keeping it all off for five years or more.
Whether you are impressed or not is irrelevant. If you want to know what the studies are actually revealing, it’s the only book out there with a real assessment.
I Agree. I am involved in one of those companies. CNI Cal Nutrasciences is dedicated to helping people get healthy. I have been using a product called Core4 and have lost 36lb so far and feel wonderful everyday.
Here’s a UCLA survey of 31 major studies. and all find pretty much the same thing. Exercise is the most significant component is losing weight and keeping it off and dieting doesn’t work so well.
http://www.magazine.ucla.edu/exclusives/dieting_no-go/
And you do realize that…. a survey only points to trends it does not make conclusions.
And yet, you still do not seem to comprehend the differences or nuances perhaps between correlation, causation, trends, facts, reality and perception?
Wow, still here beating a dead horse. Bravo.
Yes, I do.. But because you are limited in your ability to comprehend what people write, you don’t see it. You assume that you know what I think, but you don’t. And so you get it wrong when you challenge me.
And before you tee off, remember you insulted me first.
You say you do,. but yet again, you are beating a dead horse.
I didn’t insult you. If I wanted to insult you, I would call you a name. I merely offered my point of view. Again, you think someone challenging you is insulting you because you take it personally. You fail to remain objective.
I assume nothing. I remain objective when I analyze a person/study/point of view. Perhaps you should try to do the same. Just a suggestion. To each his or her own. I care not for what you do with your life, again, I prefer to remain objective. I don’t take anything you say personally, nor am I “challenging” you. This is not a war, or a game of chess. Perhaps it is in your perception.
You were condescending and wrong.. Right above, I have a post where I talk about, in the message line, that there are very few conclusions right now. And yes, condescension in insulting. You aren’t being honest.
Yet,. you seem so sure of everything you post, without there being surety of conclusions.
I wonder, how can you be so sure of EVERYTHING, when nothing in life is 100 percent, 100 percent of the time, bunny/happy/whichever handle we are speaking in terms of today.
You do realize that again, it is your perception yet again. I do not cater to your thoughts, feelings and wishes, neither do studies or others on this forum. That is the point I am hoping you will learn at some point in your travels. Or perhaps live and let live would be a better way of putting it. But we are talking in circles again aren’t we.
No, you’re the only one spinning in circles.. You accuse me of not realizing there are no conclusions directly under a post where I say there are no conclusions. We aren’t talking in circles. you’re pretending that I write stuff that I don’t.
You did this when you assumed that my post where I referred to superstition about weight loss as psychological mumbo jumbo meant that I said psychology was mumbo jumbo. My dearest cousin is a Jungian psychologist and she’s one of the most brilliant people that I know.
You have real issues with leaping to conclusions with my posts. I say exactly what I mean.
What I encourage people to do is eat right, lay off the junk and find either a low carb or a low calorie/low fat diet that they can stick with. I encourage them, if they hit a plateau, to lay off the caffeine and the artificial sweeteners and I tell them why. Then I tell them that they need to exercise and the best way to maintain an exercise program is to find exercises that they enjoy doing in the time frame that’s available to them.
I kept my weight off for over 15 years – I know how to do it. I also know how hard it is. And further, I don’t misconstrue your posts as you do mine.
You are entertaining. Again, no one is accusing you of anything, so please reconsider your defensive strategy. This is not a war or a battlefield.
It is a forum, and I am merely offering an opinion. You are welcome to think what you wish, or feel what you wish.
I see you prefer to dwell in the past as well. This does little for you, or the arguments you make. I don’t believe I misconstrued you. Bravo for your cousin, I’ve attended many lectures on Jungian psych approaches. I prefer cognitive behavioral or more humanistic approaches myself.
I’m sure you say exactly what you mean, but once again, this is a forum, where people largely state opinions, not factual information. Thoughts and feelings are exchanged. Live and let live, agree, respectfully, to disagree. Eventually you will get to that point, but I still think you are missing it. I understand you are doing what you think is right, perhaps even your duty, in your mind. I applaud you for that and your weight loss. I’m not criticizing you for that, nor, what’s in the past, etc., so again, you may cease and desist with the defensiveness.
It’s not often that we get the opportunity to see from the perspective of others how we come truly across to them. This could be a learning experience for you, why not take advantage of it?
Are you an alcoholic? §.
LOL – Just to prove how wrong you are about. what I think and write, directly above your post I made a post where I said directly that there are very few conclusions and that no one really knows how obesity happens. But because that runs contrary to your rather narcissistic fantasy of what I’m writing, you didn’t even notice.
What we do know beyond any shadow of a doubt is that the vast majority of people who diet don’t lose much weight and don’t keep it off. That’s not a dead horse. That’s a very sad reality and the only way to avoid becoming superstitious, is to really understand what you’re up against.
Now, are you capable of rethinking your presumptions about me or do you prefer superstition to science?
Hey I’ve kept mine off 6 years. title says it all
what I object to. is the verbal abuse you direct towards people who are having a civil disagreement with you.
IF people are civil, I’m not assertive.. I’m only tough on people who are full of shit. You give that a pass.
Still uncalled for. Your being full of shit doesn’t mandate my being an ass.
What Bats is complaining about. is that I called someone out for claiming that people who are obese are lazy, ignorant and undisciplined. And if you want to be polite to people like that, be my guest. But I’m going to call that person out for the uniformed buffoon that they are.
To be clear, Bats didn’t object to the insults the original poster posted. he objected to me pointing out that only an ignoramus would say such a thing.
I’m quite civil and probably the best informed poster in here. I only insult people who are insulting. And yes, i think that’s reasonable adult behavior. You want to ignore it, be my guest. I think it’s a mistake.
do a forum search on one of your favorite words. for example immoral, and see what kind of invective springs up attached to your handle:
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/forums/?ID=133835588
yeah, that person was hideous – giving diabetics. bad advice. That costs people their lives. Of course, maybe, you’re okay with that…..
Personally, I think that kind of shit is atrocious and needs to be called out in no uncertain terms.
Lying to diabetics – ugh.
in other words, you can always. find a way to justify your ad hominem attacks.
ugh.
IOW, you’re offended that I call people out on. bad behavior. Now, the bad behavior doesn’t bother you, but someone calling low lifes like that cretin out does.
I have a lot of diabetes in my family and it destroys lives. My uncle, who was at the invasion of Normandy, lost both legs and his vision. My grandfather and my mother died at 64. It’s a terrible disease.
I’m starting to think you’ve chosen the best name for yourself.
Well let’s check with Craig then…. and see if he is hiring a forum cop?
Good grief.
You are entitled to your opinion, however, it does not merit a negative retribution of some sort or bad behavior towards others on your behalf…
You are not the “savior” or “forum hero”. That’s quite a narcissistic trait don’t you think? Do you think anyone thinks so highly of what you have to say in return? Or that they are giving consideration in the depths of their person to the health of others. I have that answer for you…Not at all. You waste your efforts. Better focus on yourself than the behavior of others.
You have an admirably active imagination..
If the chances of keeping it off. are so infinitesimal… should we all just give up any attempt to lose weight and get fatter and fatter and fatter?
I’ve kept 50 pounds off for 5 years. I can guarantee you it’s never coming back — because I’m not the same person I was then.
Not by a long shot.
I know that I can’t go back to a sedentary lifestyle — eating whatever the hell I feel like.
Instead I eat sensible portions of healthy foods and get daily exercise. It isn’t a struggle. It isn’t even hard. It’s just who I am now.
Easy peasy.
No, not at all. You just have to be realistic. and do, Elaine, what you do. But it doesn’t work for everyone despite how hard they try. And if you are one of the people who is dieting and exercising and weight isn’t coming off, then you need to know what battle you’re up against.
The thing I tell everyone is that when I exercised 90 – 120 minutes a day, the weight poured off. There’s now some science that validates my personal experience but it’s far from conclusive. There appears to be almost a geometric increase in the amount of weight lost when exercise is boosted over 90 minutes a day. But then the question becomes, how many people have 90 minutes a day.
The first study that I ever read on weight loss was back in the 80s in some medical journal. A guy was in a horrendous accident and was in the hospital in traction. He started gaining weight, so the nutritionists started cutting back on his food. He gained more weight. They decided the family was sneaking food in and moved into isolation where his family could not get food to him. He kept gaining weight. In the end, he put on over 100 pounds of fat eating virtually nothing. Science had no explanation as to how this could happen. There are a lot of mysteries. That’s all.
It works for people who DO IT.. The problem is that most people see losing weight as a project and as soon as they reach their goal weight, they let out a big sigh and thank their lucky stars that “that’s done.”
They think they have it licked. They can maintain now just fine.
And they start rationalizing (i.e., inching back to the same lifestyle they had before.)
I personally don’t believe that somebody gained 100 pounds in a hospital environment eating “virtually nothing”. But even if it were true.. that’s ONE GUY.
How many comatose/bedridden people are there in the country who are being fed intravenously in a hospital environment? Are they all gaining weight? I’d say.. no.
If you were on the island with Tom Hanks.. guess what.. you’d lose weight and you’d KEEP IT OFF.
100 years ago, this wasn’t an issue. People didn’t get morbidly obese because they were too busy WORKING all day in the fields, or walking up steps. Our genetics have not changed that much in two generations.
Hell. This wasn’t an issue 50 years ago.
Obesity “runs in families” because they all have learned the same poor eating habits and have not learned to get exercise.
Researchers didn’t believe either.. But, it was in a medical journal and was thoroughly documented. Twenty years ago, we wouldn’t have believed that women in a hospital, exercising and eating 800 calories a day after a 600 calorie a day diet would gain weight – we would have assumed that they would keep losing though slightly less than they did on the 600 calorie a day diet. But no, at 800 calories they start putting weight on. Your metabolism can drop by up to 50%.
But you’re the only one here who gets it right. And you are the only one that I know of here that has lost weight and kept it off for several years.
They didn’t find any obese people. when they liberated the concentration camps in Germany.
And there are plenty of others here who have kept significant amounts of weight off for long period of time.
Living on starvation diets for years,. as those prisoners did, will take weight off of anyone, but you can’t reasonably ask people to subsist on potato peelings. And even within ultra-low calorie diets, people lose weight at different speeds.
The first time I ever went to a bariatric doctor to lose weight, I had maybe 25 pounds to lose. i was eating around 1200 calories a day and exercising on top of having a physically demanding job. We kept dialing back my calories, until finally he had me down to 700 calories a day with 10% fat. I lost less than a half a pound a week. Could I have gotten to goal if I’d eaten 700 calories a day for a year? Maybe. But as soon as I would have kicked it back up to 1200, it would have all come back on. And that’s the problem. The only way around it is constant vigilance and consistent exercise. And even that doesn’t work equally well for everyone.
Now, this was before I discovered that I could lose a lot more weight by exercising for 90 to 120 minutes over an hour.
I’m not advocating. a starvation diet. Never have, never will.
I’m simply making the point that our bodies are subject to the laws of physics.
Yes, there are medical anomalies, but for the vast majority of us:
The more you eat, think and behave like a lean and fit person, the more your body will be lean and fit.
The more you eat, think and behave like an obese person, the more your body will be obese.
Oh, and as for obesity runs in families,. it runs in families where the children are surrendered for adoption and never meet or see their biological parents even when the adoptive parents are trim. And the first studies to document this were in Denmark in the mid-twentieth century. Identical twins who are surrendered for adoption and raised in separate families have nearly identical levels of obesity as adults. Fraternal twins adopted out and raised in separate families have the same ratio of obesity to each other that fraternal raised together in their biological families do.
Obesity is largely genetic and the only way around it is constant maintenance and exercise.
“constant maintenance and exercise”. is called “lifestyle”
It’s not difficult. It’s not oppressive.
It’s just “doing what needs to be done.”
Yeah, that’s pretty much it. §.
You are a crazy person and an extremist. Bunny. I don’t even know why anyone bothers arguing with you. You’re so “traumatized” by what diabetes has “done” to your family that you have lost all objectiveness and logic on the subject of weightloss. Not everyone is a fucking diabetic and not ever diabetic has to do things your way… Turn the page!
You keep referring to “these” studies, but rarely attach links said studies to support your claims.
P.S. This forum is FULL of people who have lost weight and kept it off for over five years.
Yeah, because telling people they need to find. a diet they can comfortably stick with, and find exercise they enjoy doing in the time they have to do it, is so fucking extreme.